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Is just typing here checking me in? Does Steve have the links? Pretty much now the main communication should be you two since he's mixing and putting this all together. But I'll still be checking in.
You can make sure your email is working etc Sam. I just posted all 3 of my frum takes as midi in the files for this page. If you don't know follow your email to the project page and files are mid page. I'll populate the page.
Ok all 3 takes and the 1st take mixed as an mp3 are on the server. I will put that mp3 in the latest mix player and populate. Sam can you paste your lyrics into a comment here and I'll up it on the page for safekeeping too. Steve you should have all 3 takes. Feel free to remove some of the crashes and keep us advised what you need. I'm watching.
Ok, I here! Just finishing up somethings. The chords are based on a song sent me in 2012 and in 2014 I build from there. This is of course a much different arrangement than the country version we did. Got Fred's drums in the mix now using Logic Pro Producer Kit+ So Cal kit+, bass drum is Roots+ kit (less compressed and deeper bass drum).
Upload current mix for approval from you two. Fred the So Cal is tricky it is very real and the sustain and brightness of the brass is natural. The cymbals needed to be dampened so they don't ring out as much. Great for rock, but for ballads it needs to be tamed. It's late for both of you, sorry it took so long, keep forgetting I'm on the left coast.
I was having a hard time finding cymbals without those qualities. I am told that you can make designer kits. You can surely try other cymbals if you like. That is exactly why I own a set of Sabian Aax cymbals and a Steve Gadd custom ride. I picked them out for those very reasons. I'm onboard with that idea and I am keen on the choice of cymbals helping that. If you have others to try in there, I'm cool with that. I also am not married to the SoCal kit. If you like something different, give 'er a try. If the dampening works, but I was also thinking at least one of those crashes was to big. Almost a ride. I think some on tha tlist are even called ride crash.
Sabian Aax dark series have a very short decay, and they address that very thing. You hit them and they go away quicker than most. I have pictures of me using felt sheets to create custom dampeners. I know of this quite well. It shows in the mixes for sure.
I went into the cymbal room at guitar center with a stick in my hand and tested crash after crash on their wall rack of cymbals. I arrived with the Aax ark series, by ear, testing for the exact thing you speak of. It had a very definite difference in how quickly it released. Some of those are even gonglike. I find I prefer short and quicker in general. Don't want it too short, but it tends to cut way down on your washed out mixes from high frequencies from crashes that hold onto the crash and take longer to go away. In general those cymbals tend to be cumulative and it does wash out your mix. Especially if any flurries are done. I would concur with this thinking. It tends to give you a warmer mix. I do like that way.
I damped them about 10% (kit designer) the left cymbal is way over done in logic (C#2), I broke your MIDI to six tracks. I'm working on getting it to you, got to find out if Logic 6 is backwards compatible with Logic 5.5...
I was dealing with the room. They don't give you that much control other than how you'd approach it with an acoustic kit. On acoustic they give you x/y overheads and all of the cymbals are in the x/y room sound. The ride is part of a room sound. To get more ride you need to give it more room, which is true on the acoustic kit as well. I would like to have more control of the ride. I am considering how to have the specific trigger of the ride (without the room), and the room combined. Giving more direct control of the ride/room ratios. Did you indeed find more ride accents in the midi? And some hat accents as well I expect?
Apples AUSampler (native) works great, haven't tried it in Cakewalk. I sampled a bunch of classic DX7 and Juno keyboard patches (as they were called) years ago, it was very easy to do. Sampling Cymbals is a great idea!
Especially since I have specifically researched the very problem you spoke of Steve. Should I use the same kind of pencil mix we used for overhead to sample that? Or the Rode, with the large diaphram and phantom power? Rode might be warmer. One of our goals. Or maybe a 57?
And I think an actual "room mic" as well as the x/y, and you can move the room mic closer to the ride ro give it prominance in one channel. I haven't picked that out as I watched the VUs as I played. I think I was seeing it register on the overheads which I call room. It is directional. You might be able to adjust x/y direction and get more ride. I believe they might have those parameters there. It simulates the room and labled mic placements. If you think logically about the mics around your kit and picture that, you should have some control via these parameters to simulate change of position of some of the mics, including an actual room mic, which is across the room a little. It's the signal I thought about using the rode nt2a. I bet this is similar in that software. I didn't have that much control. I was struggling to make the ride more prominant in my monitor, and the crashes less so. The left hand side crash is especially ringy. Looking forward to hearing. I wonder if we can insert samples of my crashes. We can insert wav or aiff oneshot samples right?
It was tolerable as I played as long as I didn't hit the left hand crash too hard. It's very cool that you can duplicate that over there. I'm impressed in general. I would bet that when i hear your mix you will have addressed a lot of the little things that flagged my ear. I knew we can work with the cymbal selection. I am gonna try to get a goot sample of all of my cymbals and let you hear it. I bet the rode would make a nice warm sample. I don't have to hit it that hard, and mic not too close. Maybe a couple feet away and a good deliberate hit. I am hopeful we could pop them onto the kit after the fact if Logic allows this on their producer kits. Of find similar in the kit designer. I def love the warmer mixes. Less harsh highs the better. Nice!
Maybe I will do multiple samples with a few different mics. Find the best warm sample. They are warmer cymbals all around. And this Steve Gadd custom ride, found the same way. With a stick and comparing them on the wall. It was amazing the difference when I came to these.
The dampening you applied is in Logic? Would I be backward compatible? 10.3 is what I am using. I have avoided upgrades. I am looking forward to looking through the kits more. I just came from using Superior Drummer 3, on windoze, to this, and I like this a whole lot better. I think that is the same conclusion Sam came to (using his ear). He preferred EZD2 kit over SD3. I had to agree with him once he showed me his mix. It does feel more natural. Of course he told me what to look for and put it in my head, but I had not trouble agreeing with him. I have been a bit disappointed in SD3 looking back. Just the layout and ease of use I like. I was getting results with minor setbacks with stumbling to fin options but I have found it fairly intuative. I have seen some great features. I have not been able to duplicate it yet but I am getting more familiar. Once I get my routines down, it's gonna be quite the tool. Lots of good things, I just need to learn.
The mix with the 22:15 upload time, has more presence, and my rough mix. The crashes are pretty splashy in that mix. I'll listen to the next mix. I'm tired of hearing me hit that crash every time around. LOL The presence is improved.
Is the left and right inverted? I am hearing the hats on the right. They are on the left on my kit. Are my speakers right or is this backwards left and right? Hats def on left.
Man the kit alone sounds pretty damned good. A little boomy and a little splashy but that is pretty impressive. I think it has a lot to do with my choice of kit Steve. You have my blessing to try different configurations to follow your ear. I would reitterate why my own personal want was. That was less crash, and a little more prominance of ride. Just a little. Sounded damn good though. Logic producer kits is the shit man! It has simplified this so much. I had to do some work arounds to make it work, but damned if it didn't work pretty well. I think I'll improve with my knowledge of it. Good job Steve. Let's try to address some of the things your ear flagged. I am in agreement with what you've said. After listening it reinforces this. Follow the ear.
I probably need to hook up a usb interface to logic and use near field monitors. Hmmmm I have one for it. I'm mastering a mix with Adam I just finished.
Haven't read all what you wrote yet. But here's a sample Logic Pro drum project with your drum part. I looks like it opened in 5.1 let me know if it doesn't work. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HBopGw7PEb-nvwKqE-DrqYnQM8joT6gd/view?usp=sharing
I see the zip file. It showed the contents as a logic project file. I will grab this with the macbook tomorrow. I will indeed let you know how this goes for opening this. Productive day. I am in agreement with what you've presented thus far, all around. I would be inclined to remove some of those crashes trying to leave those which augment his vocals best. I do believe that is exactly what you said earlier. Again concur.
Logic Pro Producer drums are mixed from the perspective of the audience by default, what I hear in your music you mix as if you're playing the drums. My midi files are broken into six tracks so they can be panned any direction. The sample project should answer your other questions. Notice how bright Adams drums are, that is great for rock 'cause it cuts right through the mix. Take a look at the Brooklyn kit, it's not as bright but very full sounding the timbre of the cymbals is different not as bright but still rings out. The compression setting I use makes the drums pop (attack and release setting) if you're not using compression take a look at those settings too. I don't like the So Cal bass drum it's heavily compress, and very muted like back in the day when we would throw pillows into the bass drum. I see I got your ok to continue with the current drum version, not much to change other than fixing the boom and splash...
I just did a compare session with Adam. His mix has more presence, and easier to hear everything compared to mine. I will def be looking deeper into Logic, including it's mastering. I checked out a few of the other kits. Plenty of others that are more suited to this genre. I will let you choose which you like Steve. I am going to just delete every other crash. If we miss any of them in the big picture in context to the vocal we can draw them back in. Listening fresh, I hear a good amount of cringe worthy places in the takes. Hopefully it's usable. Some good stuff mixed in with the cringes. Hope to get more proficient with the new mesh head setup. The hat control is hard for me to work with right now. Will take some time on the kit.
Thanks Sam. There are still a few problems to address. I have to agree with what Steve has said. I hit the crashes too often, and they are too big for this style. The cymbal on the right is almost like a ride. Steve this Logic project opened fine here. It was missing some things as it loaded but it did load, and I hear my kit in this project. I also see it separated as stems. I guess I will go into the editor and remove every other crash hit.
I just closed the editor without saving. I am not used to this. I was going through and deleting crashes, then all of a sudden it's back at the beginning and I loose context of where I was. Tried to move the cursor to where I was working. Doesn't do what I expected. You might be waiting a while for me to learn Logic before I can send you edited work. I just gave up and closed it without saving. Would be a lot quicker if you did this crash delete. Was going along well, starting and stopping using spacebar, then all of a sudden it's back as square one. I'm just not used to this editor I guess.
I was looking at the brooklyn kit. I like the crashes better but then the ride seemed to disappear. I am going to have to spend some time with this. Hope you are able to wait on my edits while I get used to to this.
I guess I could import this into my windoze daw where I have some control and delete the crashes. I will try that. I may be dropping back to my wondoze daw for awhile just to get things done.
Just uploaded the current mix. Fred I used the Logic Pro Brooklyn Kit it's a full sounding kit, but without the brightness of the So Cal Designer Kit. Take 2 was great, but add the attitude of take 3 on the drums. I swap L/R on the gain util so the drums are mixed as if you are playing them like the way you mix. Let me know if any changes are needed...
Brooklyn kit sounds good Steve (from what I can hear). I gotta remember to sample my studio cymbals so I can try using them in Logic. I will try to remember to do this. I need a secretary. Cool 👍
Listening now. Sam, I swear you have a Leslie horn on your vocal in that intro! The drums a but hard to hear in that mix but I agree does sound good! Really coming around!
My drumming will hopefully improve as I get back into playing kit more. I have big plans along that avenue, along with trying to get some of my own vocals going on songs I write. Big plans, and we'll see how much success I have.
Thanks Fred. I've been actively working on it, so it looks like it may be paying off. How's your practice going? Have you started?
I'd suggest to begin by "waking" you throat up again: Very low growling and/or humming, like trying to sing baritone in a Barber Shop quartet, to stimulate the vocal chords and make them use to more "activity."
I've been thinking I need to actually write some melody to sing, but maybe that's a mistake. What I need to figure out just how much control I have. I am thinking that is the issue to begin with (control). Right after they called me "cured" I had almost no control so I couldn't follow simple melody scales. I was using row, row, row, your boat as my test melody. Perhaps that should be my starting focus just to see that I have any control to begin with. I started to say I need to follow a simple melody, but most melodies are simple 1 note scales. They sound more complex when you add the context. So as I type this I've decided to try row your boat as a starting point. I think I will play that simple melody on the keys, and then try to follow what I hear and then decide how effectively I was able to follow that melody. I may need to just focus on control for a bit. My left vocal cord is paralyzed but that does leave one good one. Maybe if I exercize following scales it will improve. I will try your suggestions. I do want to write some melodies for my progressions but it may be a mistake to wait for that. No time like the present.
No but you are a hell of a vocalist and musician, and your advice makes sense to me. Even dr. advice has to make sense to me for me to follow it. I probably need to define my problem areas and work on them. One biggie would be control to follow a scale. I will keep you posted if I make any noteworthy progress.
Well I dare say that vocalist is gone. I am determined. I will be using keys as a guide so I won't be offering any up unless I can actually follow a scale. If I get to that point it should be usable. Thanks.
LOL! Caught! See, this is why I'm willing to work with different people. They challenge me in various ways. As you already know, I'm not the biggest 'ballad' fan, so doing this song with Steve forced me to try to sting in a different way. It's not the same as rock or jazz, which I'm used to. It called for a plain, stark voice. So I started practicing before I sent Steve the final tracks. I'm still not big on ballads, but it challenged me to try something new with my voice. So thanks, in a roundabout way, kinda goes to Steve.
No Leslie horn added to any of Sam's vocals, all that is in the channel strip is compression, eq, reverb, and stereo expander, dehisser. However on the intro there was a lot of noise on two background harmony tracks and I used a DeHisser to remove that noise. That maybe what your trained ear is hearing is more of a phasing (or modulation) sound. I will check that out and adjust the threshold if it is a issue. Sam has a rich vibrato on this recording, if I would have added an odd effect he would have caught it right away. I send Mark Goldberg an email last night to see if he can add solo's to the track. I like your idea Sam of one acoustic solo then an electric, that's how the sound of the tracks build too.
I like it. Listen closely to it. His speed is even changing in the vibrato if I am not mistaken. He says he's been practicing it. Since I lost my own ability to sing I am keen on listening to vocals. I may be over thinking this, because Sam does exactly what I'd be shooting for if I was still singing, and he does it well. I've told him this many times. He works hard at it and it shows. I don't think that is average stuff.
It probably is because it is multiple voices with each having some vibrato and they they are a bit cumulative and sounding like speed changes. Whatever it is it's remarkable.
I am more hopeful to re-invent myself than to get that back. Part of my own problem is that my situation was avoidable. All we can do is learn from our mistakes but I am enjoying what I am hearing. Let me know when it is time for critique of the mix Steve. I know a producer has to get to that point to even be thinking about mix. I also know that we may approach things differently so you may not accept what I say/hear but you might, so I will give that feedback when you say "go".
I will listen again but the mix on his vocals felt different this time. Not sure if thinner is the word, but maybe certain parts felt more up front. With a wall of vocals like that they have to be somewhat even. Before it felt more even. Certain voices kind of stood out in that mix. Myself I would have the drums up just a little. I will listen some more but those are the things I noticed before I started fixating on the vibrato.
Sam's vocals can be tricky, there are seven tracks of vocals for this song. Originally as you mention his vocals were a wall of sound. He is singing different phrase and generally there are three parts (groups). The volume of that phrase is based on the lyrics, so key lyrics are now more prominent in the mix. A key phrase is sung, then another phrase of lyrics answers, kind of what Sam does (the weaver). The compression on the six track of drums is limiting it to go in to the red, but usually adjusting the make up in the compression with bring up the parts that are lower in volume. It is at 4 dB right now so I'll look into increasing it for some of the drum parts. But again without overshadowing Sam's vocals, the drums should flow as the same level as the bass.
I do hear what you're saying, and did make some adjustments to the compression attack and release settings which will allow accented drums parts to stand out. Also I brought the cymbals (get those samples going, I'd use them!), so the high hat is forward which will keep the drums flowing. I changed the bass drum to the Retro Kit, it is less compressed (I use the Roots kit for bass drum) it rings out better so it is better heard in the mix. I'm going to upload it later today. Gotta keep up with the yard... Thanks!
Do you know how to insert samples into Logic? Ok I will try to make a point of the samples this evening. I've heard your mix abilities Steve. I will be learning from you, I know. I trust what you're doing. I am fine if you do it your way rather than mine. It might just happen that your way becomes mine. So I have the sampling on my radar now. I think I will try using the Rode Nt2A with focusrite into the mackbook for sampling. I am not good with Logic yet. I'm an old hand with Audacity and I have that on the Mac, so I will use it. If we find it's inferior, I will just have to learn how to use Logic for this. You are producing. I am fine with your decisions. I've been impressed with your work so we're good.
On the channel strip look for AU Instrument>Apple>AU Sampler. There you can add a sampled sound to the keyboard and save it as an instrument. I used Audacity for many years it works great for what you want to do.
I am curious how you will integrate that into the brooklyn kit. I know we have the drum machine designer, and we can drag and drop samples into it. Is it just a matter of routing those crashes in the brooklyn kit to my samples in the AU sampler? In 10.5 I am redid they redid the drum machine designer. I will look for this AU sampler.
I read they redid the drum machine designer that was supposed to say. When you look at the drumkit for the brooklyn I thing you can select which cymbals you want to use. Is there and option there to route it to the AU sampler? I was thinking the 14 sample is a little subdued but then I remembered that is exactly what we are after. Was not sure if I hit it hard enough. I did those samples using audacity on my macbook. I guess we can decide how effective they are once you actually put them in.
I just use the AU Sampler as a software instrument. I have samples of old classic keyboards like Juno and DX7 then add them just like any midi instrument. Your samples are vivid, but you need to remove any lead edge silence, with translate into a delay when the sampled sound is played. The drum designer is a great when you're ready to create a kit from all your samples...
Yes. I had a good idea that I left a little dead air on them. Better that way than truncated. If you want to edit off the dead air, go for it. Hard to undo it once it's saved with bad edits. Being conservative is the only way to do that. You can do non destructive saves and keep the original until you know the dead air is properly removed. Should be able to edit it right where it crosses the zero line for a clean edit. Wife was sitting there with her streaming show paused while I sampled the kit so I just did a conservative edit and saved. Didn't want to do a rushed edit and ruin the whole effort. In this case conservative is better than poorly edited and saved. I agree that some dead air needs to be removed. I can do that for you now if you need me to. It's good to do those types of edits while not under pressure.
I am setting up my mackbook now to sample these cymbals. I put the specs and some pictures on the page just above the files area. I have a Zildjian 18" China I am going to sample while I am there. I consider that China too much and I I've applied felt dampener to that because it is too much. That one is not part of this project, but I will sample it while I am doing it. Check out the pics and specs on the page guys.
Ok the samples are there in the files Steve. I sampled using an sm57. It's a good all around mic. There is a China sample there that you can ignore. I just sampled that because I was there sampling. I left the mic and mackbook setup near the kit. If there are problems I can re-do it. Let me know.
I hit the cymbals from the front but the mic was placed at the 90 degree axis to cut down on coming and going as the cymbal moved up and down when hit. I read awhile back to sample at the axis like that. Should be good. If not I will re do them.
Just listened again. It's not as bad as I first thought. These cymbals are purposely not as "splashy" as a lot and meant for studio for that reason. Let me know.
I am positive I can draw the crashes in on the drid of my DAW. I was thinking we'd have Logic trigger the samples. Is this what you're planning Steve? I think the crashes are our biggest consideration. It'd be interesting to see if the ride can also be used, sing I do accents on the ride.
So I think I am close to knowing how to do this. It looks like we can drag and drop samples into ultrabeat. I am looking at how to mix together ultrabeat and producer kits in the kit designer. I think that would do it.
I know that china (and probably the ride too) are not part of this project. I put a new picture on the page with the cymbals showing how I deadened the china. I need to put that felt back on there. It is just too overpowering.
The sample of the 14 inch crash was good but had dropouts in the waveform, corrected it by removing flat line areas in the sampled waveform. It's now in the drum performance adding it using the AU Sampler A2 note, but lowered the note to F2 'cause it's the same pitch as the Logic C#2 cymbal and wanted it to stand out from the Logic crash cymbals. The drums are now forward in the mix by changing the compression makeup from 4 dB to 5.5 dB. Also went to the Roots Producer Drum Kit Bass Drum for a deep full sound.
Something that is flagging me as I listen Steve. Has to do with the vocal mix. Where he sings "Alone In Nowhere", just before the drums come in. To me the lower harmony seems a little burried. Means the higher harmony is a bit out front by itself. As I listen I think the high is at a good level. I would be bringing that low harmony up close to that level so the high harmony is not so much on it's own. That is the ONLT thing is this entire mix that is flagging me. It's freaking great! Excellent teamwork I am seeing here. You got this framing Sam's excellence very well! If you agree, nudge the low up so it is closer to the high harmony level. Very nice!
Weird stuff. All of those samples I did had the drop out except the ride. Why some and not others I have no clue. I went in and fixed all that needed to be fixed. Killed all the dead air at the front, and also eliminated the dropouts. I also went and loaded a sample into the AU sampler. If seemed to have it in there but I get no sound when I press a key. Maybe I have to configure the output on the system. I did change that when I was sampling.
I removed the dropouts, and dead air, and I also made not of the 60 cycle thing on the 15. I do indeed hear what you mean. So I'm following what you've conveyed to me. Learned on all accounts. I am following.
I should note here: The samples that are currently on the server here, have been updated. Google let's us overwrite files and leave their links intact. So while the download links have not changed, the contents has. You could delete old versions and get these edited. Obviously you did the same edits on the 14 and posted it. The whole set now has dead air removed and all flat spots deleted. All linked are fixed.
Fred, I'm getting an awful lot of these email notifications. Didn't you say something about a "mention only" option? I can't seem to find it. I don't want to completely unsubscribe since I'm involved.
Welcome to Nowhere Music - Stan Loh & Steve Caustrita Vocals, Lyrics - Sam Dixon Guitars - Mark Goldberg Drums - Fred (Keeper) Bass, Keyboards - Steve Caustrita
Recorded at Smoke Cloud Studio - Los Angeles (2014, 2018, 2021)
Produced by Smoke Cloud Entertainment www.facebook.com.steve.caustrita www.stevecaustrita.reverbnation.com
I'm all checked in
ReplyDeleteIs just typing here checking me in?
ReplyDeleteDoes Steve have the links? Pretty much now the main communication should be you two since he's mixing and putting this all together. But I'll still be checking in.
You can make sure your email is working etc Sam. I just posted all 3 of my frum takes as midi in the files for this page. If you don't know follow your email to the project page and files are mid page. I'll populate the page.
ReplyDeleteMy drum takes too. LOL
DeleteOk all 3 takes and the 1st take mixed as an mp3 are on the server. I will put that mp3 in the latest mix player and populate. Sam can you paste your lyrics into a comment here and I'll up it on the page for safekeeping too. Steve you should have all 3 takes. Feel free to remove some of the crashes and keep us advised what you need. I'm watching.
ReplyDeleteAre these Stanley's lyrics?
ReplyDeleteI guess I should ask for the credits so far instead of assuming I know.
ReplyDeleteMy lyrics, melody, and of course, vocals. I think Stan helped write the music.
ReplyDeleteOk Thanks Sam. When you get time paste the lyrics in here. No rush.
DeletePage is popluated. I will add it to the master list on the project page.
ReplyDeleteOk, I here!
ReplyDeleteJust finishing up somethings.
The chords are based on a song sent me in 2012 and in 2014 I build from there.
This is of course a much different arrangement than the country version we did.
Got Fred's drums in the mix now using Logic Pro Producer Kit+ So Cal kit+, bass drum is Roots+ kit (less compressed and deeper bass drum).
Upload current mix for approval from you two.
ReplyDeleteFred the So Cal is tricky it is very real and the sustain and brightness of the brass is natural. The cymbals needed to be dampened so they don't ring out as much. Great for rock, but for ballads it needs to be tamed. It's late for both of you, sorry it took so long, keep forgetting I'm on the left coast.
I was having a hard time finding cymbals without those qualities. I am told that you can make designer kits. You can surely try other cymbals if you like. That is exactly why I own a set of Sabian Aax cymbals and a Steve Gadd custom ride. I picked them out for those very reasons. I'm onboard with that idea and I am keen on the choice of cymbals helping that. If you have others to try in there, I'm cool with that. I also am not married to the SoCal kit. If you like something different, give 'er a try. If the dampening works, but I was also thinking at least one of those crashes was to big. Almost a ride. I think some on tha tlist are even called ride crash.
ReplyDeleteSabian Aax dark series have a very short decay, and they address that very thing. You hit them and they go away quicker than most. I have pictures of me using felt sheets to create custom dampeners. I know of this quite well. It shows in the mixes for sure.
ReplyDeleteI went into the cymbal room at guitar center with a stick in my hand and tested crash after crash on their wall rack of cymbals. I arrived with the Aax ark series, by ear, testing for the exact thing you speak of. It had a very definite difference in how quickly it released. Some of those are even gonglike. I find I prefer short and quicker in general. Don't want it too short, but it tends to cut way down on your washed out mixes from high frequencies from crashes that hold onto the crash and take longer to go away. In general those cymbals tend to be cumulative and it does wash out your mix. Especially if any flurries are done. I would concur with this thinking. It tends to give you a warmer mix. I do like that way.
ReplyDeleteI should sample those crashes.
ReplyDeleteI damped them about 10% (kit designer) the left cymbal is way over done in logic (C#2), I broke your MIDI to six tracks. I'm working on getting it to you, got to find out if Logic 6 is backwards compatible with Logic 5.5...
ReplyDeleteI have that idea planted now.
ReplyDeleteI was dealing with the room. They don't give you that much control other than how you'd approach it with an acoustic kit. On acoustic they give you x/y overheads and all of the cymbals are in the x/y room sound. The ride is part of a room sound. To get more ride you need to give it more room, which is true on the acoustic kit as well. I would like to have more control of the ride. I am considering how to have the specific trigger of the ride (without the room), and the room combined. Giving more direct control of the ride/room ratios. Did you indeed find more ride accents in the midi? And some hat accents as well I expect?
ReplyDeleteApples AUSampler (native) works great, haven't tried it in Cakewalk. I sampled a bunch of classic DX7 and Juno keyboard patches (as they were called) years ago, it was very easy to do. Sampling Cymbals is a great idea!
ReplyDeleteEspecially since I have specifically researched the very problem you spoke of Steve. Should I use the same kind of pencil mix we used for overhead to sample that? Or the Rode, with the large diaphram and phantom power? Rode might be warmer. One of our goals. Or maybe a 57?
DeletePencil mic? to sample cymbal crash?
DeleteAnd I think an actual "room mic" as well as the x/y, and you can move the room mic closer to the ride ro give it prominance in one channel. I haven't picked that out as I watched the VUs as I played. I think I was seeing it register on the overheads which I call room. It is directional. You might be able to adjust x/y direction and get more ride. I believe they might have those parameters there. It simulates the room and labled mic placements. If you think logically about the mics around your kit and picture that, you should have some control via these parameters to simulate change of position of some of the mics, including an actual room mic, which is across the room a little. It's the signal I thought about using the rode nt2a. I bet this is similar in that software. I didn't have that much control. I was struggling to make the ride more prominant in my monitor, and the crashes less so. The left hand side crash is especially ringy. Looking forward to hearing. I wonder if we can insert samples of my crashes. We can insert wav or aiff oneshot samples right?
ReplyDeleteIt was tolerable as I played as long as I didn't hit the left hand crash too hard. It's very cool that you can duplicate that over there. I'm impressed in general. I would bet that when i hear your mix you will have addressed a lot of the little things that flagged my ear. I knew we can work with the cymbal selection. I am gonna try to get a goot sample of all of my cymbals and let you hear it. I bet the rode would make a nice warm sample. I don't have to hit it that hard, and mic not too close. Maybe a couple feet away and a good deliberate hit. I am hopeful we could pop them onto the kit after the fact if Logic allows this on their producer kits. Of find similar in the kit designer. I def love the warmer mixes. Less harsh highs the better. Nice!
ReplyDeleteMaybe I will do multiple samples with a few different mics. Find the best warm sample. They are warmer cymbals all around. And this Steve Gadd custom ride, found the same way. With a stick and comparing them on the wall. It was amazing the difference when I came to these.
ReplyDeleteThe dampening you applied is in Logic? Would I be backward compatible? 10.3 is what I am using. I have avoided upgrades. I am looking forward to looking through the kits more. I just came from using Superior Drummer 3, on windoze, to this, and I like this a whole lot better. I think that is the same conclusion Sam came to (using his ear). He preferred EZD2 kit over SD3. I had to agree with him once he showed me his mix. It does feel more natural. Of course he told me what to look for and put it in my head, but I had not trouble agreeing with him. I have been a bit disappointed in SD3 looking back. Just the layout and ease of use I like. I was getting results with minor setbacks with stumbling to fin options but I have found it fairly intuative. I have seen some great features. I have not been able to duplicate it yet but I am getting more familiar. Once I get my routines down, it's gonna be quite the tool. Lots of good things, I just need to learn.
ReplyDeleteI guess I could use the actual overheads to sample. Just leave them in place and hit record and sample.
ReplyDeleteI'll mess with it and try to get a good warm sample and we can listen. Might like them..
DeleteI am happy I am using producer kits instead of sd3. Like a burden lifted. If i get it to be consisten with the arming and record, look out.
ReplyDeleteOk I just noticed your uploads Steve. I guess Sam and I can go have a listen. He's got two new files posted Sam.
ReplyDeleteThe mix with the 22:15 upload time, has more presence, and my rough mix. The crashes are pretty splashy in that mix. I'll listen to the next mix. I'm tired of hearing me hit that crash every time around. LOL The presence is improved.
ReplyDeleteSo the drums alone is WITH or without dampening?
ReplyDeleteIs the left and right inverted? I am hearing the hats on the right. They are on the left on my kit. Are my speakers right or is this backwards left and right? Hats def on left.
ReplyDeleteMan the kit alone sounds pretty damned good. A little boomy and a little splashy but that is pretty impressive. I think it has a lot to do with my choice of kit Steve. You have my blessing to try different configurations to follow your ear. I would reitterate why my own personal want was. That was less crash, and a little more prominance of ride. Just a little. Sounded damn good though. Logic producer kits is the shit man! It has simplified this so much. I had to do some work arounds to make it work, but damned if it didn't work pretty well. I think I'll improve with my knowledge of it. Good job Steve. Let's try to address some of the things your ear flagged. I am in agreement with what you've said. After listening it reinforces this. Follow the ear.
ReplyDeleteI probably need to hook up a usb interface to logic and use near field monitors. Hmmmm I have one for it. I'm mastering a mix with Adam I just finished.
ReplyDeleteHaven't read all what you wrote yet. But here's a sample Logic Pro drum project with your drum part. I looks like it opened in 5.1 let me know if it doesn't work.
ReplyDeletehttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1HBopGw7PEb-nvwKqE-DrqYnQM8joT6gd/view?usp=sharing
I see the zip file. It showed the contents as a logic project file. I will grab this with the macbook tomorrow. I will indeed let you know how this goes for opening this. Productive day. I am in agreement with what you've presented thus far, all around. I would be inclined to remove some of those crashes trying to leave those which augment his vocals best. I do believe that is exactly what you said earlier. Again concur.
DeleteLogic Pro Producer drums are mixed from the perspective of the audience by default, what I hear in your music you mix as if you're playing the drums. My midi files are broken into six tracks so they can be panned any direction. The sample project should answer your other questions.
ReplyDeleteNotice how bright Adams drums are, that is great for rock 'cause it cuts right through the mix. Take a look at the Brooklyn kit, it's not as bright but very full sounding the timbre of the cymbals is different not as bright but still rings out. The compression setting I use makes the drums pop (attack and release setting) if you're not using compression take a look at those settings too. I don't like the So Cal bass drum it's heavily compress, and very muted like back in the day when we would throw pillows into the bass drum.
I see I got your ok to continue with the current drum version, not much to change other than fixing the boom and splash...
Ok this makes sense. The opposite of drummer perspective. I was thinking per studio, not live. I do follow your thoughts.
DeleteI just did a compare session with Adam. His mix has more presence, and easier to hear everything compared to mine. I will def be looking deeper into Logic, including it's mastering. I checked out a few of the other kits. Plenty of others that are more suited to this genre. I will let you choose which you like Steve. I am going to just delete every other crash. If we miss any of them in the big picture in context to the vocal we can draw them back in. Listening fresh, I hear a good amount of cringe worthy places in the takes. Hopefully it's usable. Some good stuff mixed in with the cringes. Hope to get more proficient with the new mesh head setup. The hat control is hard for me to work with right now. Will take some time on the kit.
DeleteI've had goo listening session tonight. late and burned out. I will be of more use on the morrow.
ReplyDeleteFatigue has set in. Talk tomorrow.
ReplyDeleteOh man! Real drums breathed such a new life into the song.
ReplyDeleteGlad I suggested you Fred.
Sounds good so far, Steve. Is this final?
Thanks Sam. There are still a few problems to address. I have to agree with what Steve has said. I hit the crashes too often, and they are too big for this style. The cymbal on the right is almost like a ride. Steve this Logic project opened fine here. It was missing some things as it loaded but it did load, and I hear my kit in this project. I also see it separated as stems. I guess I will go into the editor and remove every other crash hit.
DeleteI just closed the editor without saving. I am not used to this. I was going through and deleting crashes, then all of a sudden it's back at the beginning and I loose context of where I was. Tried to move the cursor to where I was working. Doesn't do what I expected. You might be waiting a while for me to learn Logic before I can send you edited work. I just gave up and closed it without saving. Would be a lot quicker if you did this crash delete. Was going along well, starting and stopping using spacebar, then all of a sudden it's back as square one. I'm just not used to this editor I guess.
ReplyDeleteI was looking at the brooklyn kit. I like the crashes better but then the ride seemed to disappear. I am going to have to spend some time with this. Hope you are able to wait on my edits while I get used to to this.
I guess I could import this into my windoze daw where I have some control and delete the crashes. I will try that. I may be dropping back to my wondoze daw for awhile just to get things done.
ReplyDeleteI put take 3 into cakewalk and EZD2 and removed every other crash. It's in the files area.
ReplyDeleteJust uploaded the current mix.
ReplyDeleteFred I used the Logic Pro Brooklyn Kit it's a full sounding kit, but without the brightness of the So Cal Designer Kit. Take 2 was great, but add the attitude of take 3 on the drums. I swap L/R on the gain util so the drums are mixed as if you are playing them like the way you mix.
Let me know if any changes are needed...
Brooklyn kit sounds good Steve (from what I can hear). I gotta remember to sample my studio cymbals so I can try using them in Logic. I will try to remember to do this. I need a secretary. Cool 👍
DeleteSounding great. I see the guitar breaks are gone. Gonna get a real one?
ReplyDeleteListening now. Sam, I swear you have a Leslie horn on your vocal in that intro! The drums a but hard to hear in that mix but I agree does sound good! Really coming around!
DeleteMy drumming will hopefully improve as I get back into playing kit more. I have big plans along that avenue, along with trying to get some of my own vocals going on songs I write. Big plans, and we'll see how much success I have.
ReplyDeleteThe vibrato in your vocals are uncanny Sam! Color me a fan bro!
ReplyDeleteThanks Fred. I've been actively working on it, so it looks like it may be paying off. How's your practice going? Have you started?
ReplyDeleteI'd suggest to begin by "waking" you throat up again:
Very low growling and/or humming, like trying to sing baritone in a Barber Shop quartet, to stimulate the vocal chords and make them use to more "activity."
I've been thinking I need to actually write some melody to sing, but maybe that's a mistake. What I need to figure out just how much control I have. I am thinking that is the issue to begin with (control). Right after they called me "cured" I had almost no control so I couldn't follow simple melody scales. I was using row, row, row, your boat as my test melody. Perhaps that should be my starting focus just to see that I have any control to begin with. I started to say I need to follow a simple melody, but most melodies are simple 1 note scales. They sound more complex when you add the context. So as I type this I've decided to try row your boat as a starting point. I think I will play that simple melody on the keys, and then try to follow what I hear and then decide how effectively I was able to follow that melody. I may need to just focus on control for a bit. My left vocal cord is paralyzed but that does leave one good one. Maybe if I exercize following scales it will improve. I will try your suggestions. I do want to write some melodies for my progressions but it may be a mistake to wait for that. No time like the present.
Delete...But I'm no doctor, so only if that's safe. If it is, and some time down the line your voice slowly returns, I'll be looking forward to our duet.
ReplyDeleteNo but you are a hell of a vocalist and musician, and your advice makes sense to me. Even dr. advice has to make sense to me for me to follow it. I probably need to define my problem areas and work on them. One biggie would be control to follow a scale. I will keep you posted if I make any noteworthy progress.
DeleteThanks man.
DeleteNoteworthy... I made a punn. LOL
ReplyDeleteYeah, let me know. I remember your Dust in the Wind vocals, and we'd blend just fine voice-wise.
ReplyDeleteWell I dare say that vocalist is gone. I am determined. I will be using keys as a guide so I won't be offering any up unless I can actually follow a scale. If I get to that point it should be usable. Thanks.
DeleteI'd have to be shaking my throat with my hand to get vibrato like that. If that is all your vocal chords doing that I am totally amazed.
ReplyDeleteI was tempted to ask Steve if he's helping you with a leslie. That's what it sounds like. If this is what you say it is, yes it's working.
ReplyDeleteIf he is, I don't know about it.
ReplyDeleteYou could do jumping jacks with your vocal cords with that kind of control. I've never heard anything like that. Makes me sick! LOL
ReplyDeleteI wish it was me that had that kind of control but I'm glad someone can do that.
ReplyDeleteYou don't hear that kind of vibrato except on a hammond organ with a leslie speaker connected.
ReplyDeleteYou used you hand didn't you?
ReplyDeleteKeep up the practice. I don't know another person who can do that like that.
ReplyDeleteLOL! Caught!
ReplyDeleteSee, this is why I'm willing to work with different people. They challenge me in various ways. As you already know, I'm not the biggest 'ballad' fan, so doing this song with Steve forced me to try to sting in a different way. It's not the same as rock or jazz, which I'm used to. It called for a plain, stark voice. So I started practicing before I sent Steve the final tracks. I'm still not big on ballads, but it challenged me to try something new with my voice.
So thanks, in a roundabout way, kinda goes to Steve.
Not "sting." Sing. haha
ReplyDeleteNo Leslie horn added to any of Sam's vocals, all that is in the channel strip is compression, eq, reverb, and stereo expander, dehisser. However on the intro there was a lot of noise on two background harmony tracks and I used a DeHisser to remove that noise. That maybe what your trained ear is hearing is more of a phasing (or modulation) sound. I will check that out and adjust the threshold if it is a issue. Sam has a rich vibrato on this recording, if I would have added an odd effect he would have caught it right away.
ReplyDeleteI send Mark Goldberg an email last night to see if he can add solo's to the track. I like your idea Sam of one acoustic solo then an electric, that's how the sound of the tracks build too.
I like it. Listen closely to it. His speed is even changing in the vibrato if I am not mistaken. He says he's been practicing it. Since I lost my own ability to sing I am keen on listening to vocals. I may be over thinking this, because Sam does exactly what I'd be shooting for if I was still singing, and he does it well. I've told him this many times. He works hard at it and it shows. I don't think that is average stuff.
DeleteIt probably is because it is multiple voices with each having some vibrato and they they are a bit cumulative and sounding like speed changes. Whatever it is it's remarkable.
ReplyDeleteHope you get your voice back, the song did for your brotherIf "I Had My Way" sounded very good (Luv the guitars too). I lost mine in my 30s...
ReplyDeleteI am more hopeful to re-invent myself than to get that back. Part of my own problem is that my situation was avoidable. All we can do is learn from our mistakes but I am enjoying what I am hearing. Let me know when it is time for critique of the mix Steve. I know a producer has to get to that point to even be thinking about mix. I also know that we may approach things differently so you may not accept what I say/hear but you might, so I will give that feedback when you say "go".
DeleteGO!
ReplyDeleteI always take ideas as a song moves along, It's easier to make adjustments early in the mix before it affects other parts of the mix later...
I will listen again but the mix on his vocals felt different this time. Not sure if thinner is the word, but maybe certain parts felt more up front. With a wall of vocals like that they have to be somewhat even. Before it felt more even. Certain voices kind of stood out in that mix. Myself I would have the drums up just a little. I will listen some more but those are the things I noticed before I started fixating on the vibrato.
DeleteI guess that acoustic lead is the only real remaining "arrangement" piece of the puzzle.
ReplyDeleteMark Goldberg said he will do the solos for us...
ReplyDeleteSam's vocals can be tricky, there are seven tracks of vocals for this song. Originally as you mention his vocals were a wall of sound. He is singing different phrase and generally there are three parts (groups). The volume of that phrase is based on the lyrics, so key lyrics are now more prominent in the mix. A key phrase is sung, then another phrase of lyrics answers, kind of what Sam does (the weaver). The compression on the six track of drums is limiting it to go in to the red, but usually adjusting the make up in the compression with bring up the parts that are lower in volume. It is at 4 dB right now so I'll look into increasing it for some of the drum parts. But again without overshadowing Sam's vocals, the drums should flow as the same level as the bass.
The drums just seem to lack the volume to actually punctuate (my opinion). Cool.
ReplyDeleteI do hear what you're saying, and did make some adjustments to the compression attack and release settings which will allow accented drums parts to stand out. Also I brought the cymbals (get those samples going, I'd use them!), so the high hat is forward which will keep the drums flowing. I changed the bass drum to the Retro Kit, it is less compressed (I use the Roots kit for bass drum) it rings out better so it is better heard in the mix. I'm going to upload it later today. Gotta keep up with the yard...
ReplyDeleteThanks!
Do you know how to insert samples into Logic? Ok I will try to make a point of the samples this evening. I've heard your mix abilities Steve. I will be learning from you, I know. I trust what you're doing. I am fine if you do it your way rather than mine. It might just happen that your way becomes mine. So I have the sampling on my radar now. I think I will try using the Rode Nt2A with focusrite into the mackbook for sampling. I am not good with Logic yet. I'm an old hand with Audacity and I have that on the Mac, so I will use it. If we find it's inferior, I will just have to learn how to use Logic for this. You are producing. I am fine with your decisions. I've been impressed with your work so we're good.
ReplyDeleteOn the channel strip look for AU Instrument>Apple>AU Sampler.
DeleteThere you can add a sampled sound to the keyboard and save it as an instrument. I used Audacity for many years it works great for what you want to do.
I am curious how you will integrate that into the brooklyn kit. I know we have the drum machine designer, and we can drag and drop samples into it. Is it just a matter of routing those crashes in the brooklyn kit to my samples in the AU sampler? In 10.5 I am redid they redid the drum machine designer. I will look for this AU sampler.
DeleteI read they redid the drum machine designer that was supposed to say. When you look at the drumkit for the brooklyn I thing you can select which cymbals you want to use. Is there and option there to route it to the AU sampler? I was thinking the 14 sample is a little subdued but then I remembered that is exactly what we are after. Was not sure if I hit it hard enough. I did those samples using audacity on my macbook. I guess we can decide how effective they are once you actually put them in.
DeleteI just use the AU Sampler as a software instrument. I have samples of old classic keyboards like Juno and DX7 then add them just like any midi instrument. Your samples are vivid, but you need to remove any lead edge silence, with translate into a delay when the sampled sound is played. The drum designer is a great when you're ready to create a kit from all your samples...
DeleteOk. I thought about it. We'll just route the MIDI for the crashes to the AU sampler. Should be pretty easy.
DeleteYes. I had a good idea that I left a little dead air on them. Better that way than truncated. If you want to edit off the dead air, go for it. Hard to undo it once it's saved with bad edits. Being conservative is the only way to do that. You can do non destructive saves and keep the original until you know the dead air is properly removed. Should be able to edit it right where it crosses the zero line for a clean edit. Wife was sitting there with her streaming show paused while I sampled the kit so I just did a conservative edit and saved. Didn't want to do a rushed edit and ruin the whole effort. In this case conservative is better than poorly edited and saved. I agree that some dead air needs to be removed. I can do that for you now if you need me to. It's good to do those types of edits while not under pressure.
DeleteI just noticed that if you connect Rode and Nt2a you get Rodent 2a. Never realized that until now. I will try the rodent mic.
ReplyDeleteI am setting up my mackbook now to sample these cymbals. I put the specs and some pictures on the page just above the files area. I have a Zildjian 18" China I am going to sample while I am there. I consider that China too much and I I've applied felt dampener to that because it is too much. That one is not part of this project, but I will sample it while I am doing it. Check out the pics and specs on the page guys.
ReplyDeleteOk the samples are there in the files Steve. I sampled using an sm57. It's a good all around mic. There is a China sample there that you can ignore. I just sampled that because I was there sampling. I left the mic and mackbook setup near the kit. If there are problems I can re-do it. Let me know.
ReplyDeleteI hit the cymbals from the front but the mic was placed at the 90 degree axis to cut down on coming and going as the cymbal moved up and down when hit. I read awhile back to sample at the axis like that. Should be good. If not I will re do them.
ReplyDeleteI may have to re-sample the 14 huh? Like maybe I hit it too softly?
ReplyDeleteJust listened again. It's not as bad as I first thought. These cymbals are purposely not as "splashy" as a lot and meant for studio for that reason. Let me know.
DeleteThese wav files are playable from Google Sam, if you want to have a listen yourself.
ReplyDeleteI am positive I can draw the crashes in on the drid of my DAW. I was thinking we'd have Logic trigger the samples. Is this what you're planning Steve? I think the crashes are our biggest consideration. It'd be interesting to see if the ride can also be used, sing I do accents on the ride.
ReplyDeletegrid
DeleteSo I think I am close to knowing how to do this. It looks like we can drag and drop samples into ultrabeat. I am looking at how to mix together ultrabeat and producer kits in the kit designer. I think that would do it.
ReplyDeleteI know that china (and probably the ride too) are not part of this project. I put a new picture on the page with the cymbals showing how I deadened the china. I need to put that felt back on there. It is just too overpowering.
ReplyDeleteI am going to go ahead and put the macbook away then.
ReplyDeleteThe sample of the 14 inch crash was good but had dropouts in the waveform, corrected it by removing flat line areas in the sampled waveform. It's now in the drum performance adding it using the AU Sampler A2 note, but lowered the note to F2 'cause it's the same pitch as the Logic C#2 cymbal and wanted it to stand out from the Logic crash cymbals. The drums are now forward in the mix by changing the compression makeup from 4 dB to 5.5 dB. Also went to the Roots Producer Drum Kit Bass Drum for a deep full sound.
ReplyDeleteSteve posted a new mix Sam if you want to have a listen. I am going to listen now.
ReplyDeleteMuch better Steve! Cymbals feel better!
ReplyDeleteThose crashes die away quicker for sure! Success! Good job Steve!
ReplyDeleteI put that mix in the player at the top of the page. We are ready for Mark's acoustic gtr I rekon.
ReplyDeleteSomething that is flagging me as I listen Steve. Has to do with the vocal mix. Where he sings "Alone In Nowhere", just before the drums come in. To me the lower harmony seems a little burried. Means the higher harmony is a bit out front by itself. As I listen I think the high is at a good level. I would be bringing that low harmony up close to that level so the high harmony is not so much on it's own. That is the ONLT thing is this entire mix that is flagging me. It's freaking great! Excellent teamwork I am seeing here. You got this framing Sam's excellence very well! If you agree, nudge the low up so it is closer to the high harmony level. Very nice!
ReplyDeleteWeird stuff. All of those samples I did had the drop out except the ride. Why some and not others I have no clue. I went in and fixed all that needed to be fixed. Killed all the dead air at the front, and also eliminated the dropouts. I also went and loaded a sample into the AU sampler. If seemed to have it in there but I get no sound when I press a key. Maybe I have to configure the output on the system. I did change that when I was sampling.
ReplyDeleteI got it working Steve. I learned something from you right here! Thank you! Biggest thing I needed was the edited files. I forgot about dead air. Duh!
ReplyDeleteI removed the dropouts, and dead air, and I also made not of the 60 cycle thing on the 15. I do indeed hear what you mean. So I'm following what you've conveyed to me. Learned on all accounts. I am following.
ReplyDeletemade note
DeleteI should note here: The samples that are currently on the server here, have been updated. Google let's us overwrite files and leave their links intact. So while the download links have not changed, the contents has. You could delete old versions and get these edited. Obviously you did the same edits on the 14 and posted it. The whole set now has dead air removed and all flat spots deleted. All linked are fixed.
ReplyDeleteFred, I'm getting an awful lot of these email notifications. Didn't you say something about a "mention only" option? I can't seem to find it. I don't want to completely unsubscribe since I'm involved.
ReplyDeleteOh you mean here, or on discord?
DeleteWe are essentially done anyhow Sam. It was all new so it was a little involved. All done now.
ReplyDeleteWelcome to Nowhere
ReplyDeleteMusic - Stan Loh & Steve Caustrita
Vocals, Lyrics - Sam Dixon
Guitars - Mark Goldberg
Drums - Fred (Keeper)
Bass, Keyboards - Steve Caustrita
Recorded at Smoke Cloud Studio - Los Angeles (2014, 2018, 2021)
Produced by Smoke Cloud Entertainment
www.facebook.com.steve.caustrita
www.stevecaustrita.reverbnation.com
All of these mixes are very good!
ReplyDeleteGo ahead and post the last mix, and picture, with credits.
ReplyDeleteGlad you are a part of the project!